Lessons from Corporate Innovators

Christina Weir – Vice President, Enterprise Clinical Operations Highmark Health

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Christina has had executive roles in a number of types of healthcare companies. In most of these organizations, at least part of her time was focused on leading innovation.

Healthcare is a sector that seems to naturally lend itself to corporate innovation, given balance sheet and incumbency advantages that are often necessary for transformative innovation.

This is likely why we’ve had so many health care companies collaborate at the Corporate Startup Lab. Christina has a great perspective on this, having worked for a number of different types of players in the sector.

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Sean Ammirati: 00:08 Welcome to Agile Giants: Lessons from Corporate Innovators. I’m Sean Ammirati, your host, co-founder and director of the Carnegie Mellon Corporate Startup Plan and partner at the early stage venture capital fund, Birchmere Ventures. Each week, I’m going to talk to guests who are experts at creating startups inside large corporations. I believe fundamentally a startup within a company is the same as one inside the proverbial garage. A group of entrepreneurs trying to make the world a better place using new ideas and inventions. However, I also believe some of the techniques and processes are just inherently different. This podcast is going to explore those similarities and differences.

Sean Ammirati: 00:57 On this week’s episode of Agile Giants, I’m joined by Christina Weir, the vice president of Enterprise Clinical Operations at Highmark Health. Most people know Highmark as Southwestern Pennsylvania’s Blue Cross Blue Shield insurer. But as you’ll hear in the interview, Highmark is a much larger health care organization with a much broader mandate than that.

Sean Ammirati: 01:19 Prior to coming to Highmark, Christina had executive roles in a number of other types of companies in the healthcare value chain, including working for over 16 years at Pfizer. In most of these organizations, at least part of her time was focused on leading innovation.

Sean Ammirati: 01:33 Stepping up a level, healthcare is a sector that seems to naturally lend itself to corporate innovation, given balance sheet and incumbency advantages that are often necessary for transformative innovation. This is likely why we’ve had so many health care companies collaborate at the Corporate Startup Lab. Christina has a great perspective on this, having worked for a number of different types of players in the sector. I’ve come to trust Christina as the great advisor for me as I think about the challenges of healthcare innovation. And so it was really awesome to have her join Agile Giants to share this perspective with the audience.

Sean Ammirati: 02:13 Good afternoon, welcome to another episode of Agile Giants. I’m joined today by Christina Weir. Christina and I met first at Tepper’s Executive Education program on Leading Innovation. And she’s quickly become somebody who I really have come to appreciate her whole perspective on innovation. And specifically, you’ll see she has a really interesting breadth of experience in a variety of different components of the healthcare ecosystem. So I think as innovation and corporate innovation specifically relates to doing this in this massive industry called healthcare, how we’re all taken care of. I think she has some amazing perspectives. So Christina, thanks first of all for joining me today.

Christina Weir: 02:49 Thank you for having me.

Sean Ammirati: 02:50 And maybe to start with, why don’t you just quickly walk through your background from almost going to medical school to what you’re doing today?

Christina Weir: 02:59 Sure. So without dating myself with age here, my bachelor’s degree was molecular biology and that was pointing me towards the field of medical something, decided to take a year off before I took the adventure to go to medical school, and ended up entering the pharmaceutical sector as a salesperson believe it or not. Never saw myself in that field. And then ended up fast forward 17 years later, I spent 17 years in the biopharmaceutical medical technology sector until I came into Highmark back in 2017. And then since then have gone back to graduate school and learned a little bit more. But have spent the last 20 years now in healthcare, different areas.

Sean Ammirati: 03:40 Yeah. And you really worked for two different types of organizations. Right?

Christina Weir: 03:45 That’s right. So initially my first role in biopharmaceuticals, I worked for Pfizer, started off there in the sales area. The one thing with Pfizer is they are definitely an organization that has a lot of resources, and structure, and process, and evolution around organizational development. So I was afforded a number of different opportunities during my career there and had an opportunity to experience marketing, health economics outcomes research, customer solution development, digital solution development, and then innovation towards the later part of my career at Pfizer.

Christina Weir: 04:15 And then I left Pfizer in 2014 and I joined Boehringer Ingelheim, which is the largest private biopharmaceutical company in the world based in Ingelheim, Germany. But the US headquarters are in Ridgefield, Connecticut. And I joined there as the associate director of go to market operations. Essentially what I was doing was helping to design the field force of the future. And that was everything from our medical facing colleagues, our sales colleagues, our health economics outcomes, our R&D approach, as well as all of our enablement tools if you will.

Christina Weir: 04:44 And then after about a year in that role, they asked me to help them start up their business innovation digital health team. And essentially what I was responsible for was operationalizing our digital health function for the United States. And I led that out of Connecticut until I joined Highmark in 2017.

Sean Ammirati: 05:01 Awesome. So you’ve been a part of assembling teams to do this in a variety of different industries. And I think my impression from getting to know you, you have this very team-first perspective on these things. How do you think about the people that you want to have on your team when tackling these unknown problems? Not well-known solution problem areas.

Christina Weir: 05:23 I would say that through my career, I think the one thing that having had the privilege to work for two really large global companies to start for the large portion of my career, you have talent that comes in from a lot of different diverse locations with a lot of diverse backgrounds. So the one thing that I think pharma does really well is that they set you up to at work with folks that have very clinical backgrounds to people that have very business backgrounds, to people that have very specialized business backgrounds in marketing, digital marketing, biotech, medical device development, legal.

Christina Weir: 05:55 So what I saw very commonly in pharma were these cross-disciplinary teams that were brought together to do problem-solving exercises. So I think that’s a philosophy that I learned very early on. That diversity of thought is absolutely critical to innovation. And I would say groupthink is the enemy to innovation, right? So I think that’s the approach that I take as I’ve built teams as I’ve moved forward and started to get into people leadership roles, is that I’m less concerned about you being a subject matter expert in a specific sector and I’m more concerned about you being an innate problem solver that will come up with ideas and look for things that exist in the world that could solve a problem that we have that maybe we haven’t thought of before. I’ve definitely seen that approach work well. And I think I would say that anytime you bring people together that are all subject matter experts within one given field, it’s great. But then you probably have a very stifled thought process that comes out of that.

Sean Ammirati: 06:48 Yeah, for sure. So I think most executives are coming around to this importance of diversity and diverse thinking. I think where the rubber meets the road though is how you actually find them. So some of them you actually find just through the network and that is what it is. But how do you find them when they’re not part of your-

Christina Weir: 07:06 Part of your organization? Yeah. So when I came into Highmark, we were building an innovation team. I was asked to help build our enterprise innovation team. I’m now on a different role. I’m the vice president of Clinical Enterprise Operations.

Christina Weir: 07:18 But when I came in and built the enterprise innovation team, we had to recruit almost exclusively outside for that. And that was a very intentional exercise. As you can imagine, Highmark’s a large organization, it’s been around for 80 years. It’s the second largest integrated delivery and financing system in the United States. So very talented people internally. But when you’re intentionally building a disruptive innovation team, you want to look outside to bring in outside thought.

Christina Weir: 07:44 So we went through a number of pretty rigorous recruiting channels to do that. Everything from social media to actually hiring dedicated recruiting firms to find people with deep innovation experience.

Christina Weir: 07:55 And it’s interesting because the first thing … we got a number of candidates by the way from the west coast, from New York, from all over the country. And I think again, that’s something else I bring in from pharma. Pharma, they’re global companies. So many teams that I led in pharma were situated all over the world, at least if not at the United States. So I’m definitely somebody that says, “Okay, great, you’re in Texas, do you want to come to Pittsburgh and help us do great work? Let’s talk.” But when we would have candidates that will come in, one of the very first things they would tell you is, “I just want to make sure you understand I don’t have experience in healthcare.” And I would always say to them, “That’s fine. I’m more worried about the transferable skills that you’ll bring in and inspire us to think differently to solve big problems that we haven’t addressed.”

Sean Ammirati: 08:38 Yes. I realized most people in Pittsburgh now who Highmark just quickly. So for those who may be not in Pittsburgh, it’s probably known here mostly as the Blue Cross Blue Shield of Southwestern Pennsylvania, but it’s an IDFS as well. So maybe talk for a minute about what that is, for context.

Christina Weir: 08:56 Sure. Highmark Health is true integrated delivery and financing system, and it’s pretty interesting. What that means essentially, let me explain what it means now. Explain how it came to be, which I think actually makes it even more unique. An integrated delivering financing system basically as a health system that has all the operating components to span the full spectrum value chain of healthcare. So Highmark Health consists of Highmark, Blue Cross Blue Shield, which is an insurance plan. We also have Allegheny Health Network and then a number of invested or affiliated provider systems. We have a number of diversified business units. So dental insurance United Concordia, Visionworks, HMIG Reinsurance. So a number of different, HMHS, a number of different diversified solutions so that you can position yourselves across that whole healthcare ecosystem.

Christina Weir: 09:40 I think the unique entry point for Highmark health as an IDFS was typically what you see is integration that starts from the position point of a health system, starting a health plan, and then integrating vertically that way. This was what I’ll call a reverse integration where this started as a health plan, acquiring a smaller health system and then consolidating that way.

Christina Weir: 10:02 So this was actually a market that for modern healthcare and a lot of different health care executive forums that were really watching to see how this would turn out because it is a unique way to enter the market as an IDFS.

Sean Ammirati: 10:14 Yup. So actually, and I think that gets to another question, stepping up a level from Highmark or Pfizer, any of these companies you’ve been at specifically. But there’s different advantages that each of these different types of players have. Right? So if you’re a pharma company, there’s certain advantages. And then I think inherent in that some disadvantages as well. If you’re an IDFS, there’s some advantages and disadvantages. How do you think about types of innovation and where they fit into these different components of overall health care challenges you’re trying to solve?

Christina Weir: 10:45 So I would say from the biopharmaceutical perspective, I think that the advantage that that industry has is honestly revenue. And they have investments in money and appetite to do different things in sectors where they have a footprint or they have an R&D path forward. I would say that one of their biggest challenges is becoming trusted partners within an embedded health care ecosystem that is very skeptical of industry in general, and what their true intention is. For good reasons, many cases.

Christina Weir: 11:16 I would say on the flip side of that, I think probably one of the things that attracted me to come to Highmark Health was the fact that it is an IDFS. And so if you’re going to do innovation, this is the perfect ecosystem in which to do it because you’re touching every single part of the value chain in the ecosystem.

Christina Weir: 11:32 So very typically what I saw in pharma was, and I led innovation projects that were focused on health plans and I led innovation projects that were focused on how systems. What I commonly found was the sustainability of those innovation programs was always where we hit the crosshairs because if we went in through the health system and we started something there, we then had to back into them and then try to go back and reverse engineer how was this going to become a sustainable innovation program over time. When we went in through the health plan lens, it was a little different, but then you had to connect it into the provider’s space because a lot of innovation in the healthcare setting is really effective when it’s led, when it’s a provider-led innovation. So I saw a lot of challenges there.

Christina Weir: 12:12 I think what Highmark, what attracted me was I thought well this is like an environment where every single position and every single player that has to cooperate together to really create, identify, develop, create, deploy, and then sustain real lasting and impactful innovation is here.

Christina Weir: 12:28 So as an example, we can do things here that I don’t know other organizations maybe outside of Kaiser are really positioned to do. We can identify clinical transformation at the delivery side. We can redesign reimbursement, we can redesign the product so that we allow programmatic access to patients so they have opportunities to use different clinical innovations. We have an opportunity to do that here because of our unique, for lack of a better term, complete laboratory setting. I think that’s what drew me here. Is it as easy as I’m making it sound? Heck No. But is it why I wake up every day and I love what I do? Yes.

Sean Ammirati: 13:05 Yeah. That’s cool. That’s really cool. Let’s move on now to, I know you’re relatively new at Highmark, so maybe looking at one of your first two roles. What’s maybe an innovation project that you led or were part of that you’re particularly proud of?

Christina Weir: 13:19 Here at Highmark?

Sean Ammirati: 13:20 No, I feel like you haven’t been here that … I feel like it’s not a fair question to say. My sense is there’s a lot of awesome things in progress at Highmark, and probably if we did this again in a year there’d be natural opportunities to talking about Highmark. but before you came to Highmark, what’s a project that you worked on that you’re particularly proud of?

Christina Weir: 13:40 So I would say probably one of the initiatives that I absolutely love was the role that I led digital health at Boehringer Ingelheim, which was to stand up the digital health operations component of our organization for the US. And essentially to keep it simple, we were looking at a number of different virtual/technology solutions that we could deploy in therapeutic categories of interest for the organization. And Boehringer was really, we were leading a group that was really pushing Boehringer to question what its identity to the customer really was. Was our value as a pharmaceutical company and the molecule that we created, knowing that those spaces are often flooded with competitors and so your very small differentiation between this drug does this and this drug does this just a little bit differently. Or, could we really disrupt and drive value by pairing those molecules, those medications with digital tools, assets, and resources to actually help patients be adherent to products and actually drive quality of life? So we were really questioning that. And that’s a slippery slope with a company that’s entire identity for 150 years has been in creating pharmaceutical products.

Christina Weir: 14:48 But when I was there, I was asked to stand up our digital health, and we had a number of different remote patient monitoring pilots that we were testing in different partners. One of those partnerships actually came through our relationship with plug and play. And we had identified a remote patient monitoring program that served a respiratory population that we were very interested in. So I was responsible for setting up our go to market strategy and approach to identify health care systems that had a burdensome respiratory population where they were looking for these types of solutions where they had, I would say the operating model and the infrastructure to take those insights that come off these technology pieces and make them actionable, to actually improve the health of the population.

Christina Weir: 15:29 So when I started in that role, we had nobody working with us transparently, we didn’t have any health systems on board. And when I left that role and joined Highmark, we had 11 healthcare systems across the US participating in that remote patient monitoring pilot, which I’m very proud of because some of the things that came out of that were a ton of insights that were delivered not just back to us as a pharma company around the product, the features and services we could do to serve our patients better, but also delivering back to the health care systems to help them provide care at the point of care better.

Sean Ammirati: 15:59 Yeah. So when you say you stood up digital health for them, what does digital health mean to a company like that? 150 year old.

Christina Weir: 16:06 Yup. So I think pharma has a very well defined digital marketing approach, and what we were doing was very different. So digital marketing, we had a whole team that did that up, not what I did. Digital marketing were the folks that created the amazing ads and a different way to do geo-targeting on websites and things like that, and that’s not what I did.

Christina Weir: 16:26 Digital health for us, I would say I would define it more of technologies and modalities associated with things to support virtual care in the use of our products and virtual settings. So one of the things that we were very fascinated with, and this is a problem throughout all of the pharmaceutical sector, is adherence to medications, right? And we know that there’s a number of conditions that there are preventable readmissions, there are preventable costs if the patients can stay adherent to your medication. We have a lot of challenges there because very transparently, what happens at the point of care with a provider happens four times a year. And the majority of care for chronic conditions happens outside of the physician’s office setting. So your ability to influence that is very, very limited. So we were looking for all different sorts of digital technologies and assets that would support the management of conditions in the home and help our patients be adherent to products.

Christina Weir: 17:17 So the remote patient monitoring program that I mentioned was a monitored inhaler program where we were trying to understand did patients actually follow a maintenance inhaler schedule as it was prescribed? How frequently were they using a rescue inhaler? Through that work, I’m very proud to say we actually partnered with that startup company to create some literature around identification of people that were the decompensating in the home. And that came out of the data that’s fed off of those technology devices. But the key to that is having a health capability and a technology capability to take that data in and make sense of it, and deliver it so it’s actionable back to the frontline providers. But I think that’s the area in digital that we were focused on. So not digital marketing, but I’d say more device.

Sean Ammirati: 18:04 Yeah. And more around the actual services delivered, not awareness. Yeah. So that’s a massive cultural change for a 150-year-old company like that. So who says yes to something like that?

Christina Weir: 18:19 So the board. So Boehringer Ingelheim, it’s a privately held company, but there’s a board of directors and they’re all based out of Germany. So when we were going and requesting funding for what we wanted to do and executing against that digital strategy … so to be very transparent, we had a pretty long four to six months strategy engagement with an outside consulting firm to help us understand what does digital health look like in the biopharmaceutical sector? Where are potential areas where we could play? I mean, and that’s everything from your R&D space to things that are postmarketing. What we would call postmarketing would be like things that are in the market and launched. Those we called postmarketing products. I know that’s weird.

Sean Ammirati: 19:02 That’s not what I thought you meant by that term.

Christina Weir: 19:05 I know, that’s why I clarified. So we were trying to understand all of the potential things that you could do, and then where is it best for us to make meaningful investments to understand whether or not these things truly net out ROI, whether they truly do drive improved clinical outcomes, adherence to products, grow our brands, things like that.

Christina Weir: 19:23 So we asked for a certain amount, we didn’t get that full amount very transparently. But we did make a decision to do two different types of digital exploration. We did what I would call adjacent digital exploration where we were in categories, we had products in the market. And we were exploring digital devices and technologies that we could deploy alongside existing products to differentiate them.

Christina Weir: 19:49 So think of Swiffer WetJet and the mop. Not a radical innovation, but certainly made it more usable. So we were exploring that. And that RPM program that I spoke up was in that category.

Christina Weir: 19:59 And then we had another program in development where we were looking at drugs that were earlier stage. So still in research and development, and trying to understand digital assets that we could release pre-market launch that then you would prove the applicability of the device, and pair it to the molecule once it was in the market.

Sean Ammirati: 20:18 Really?

Christina Weir: 20:19 Yes. So we were exploring that in behavioral health.

Sean Ammirati: 20:23 How do you do that?

Christina Weir: 20:24 So we had a number of different focus areas where we felt like there was potential in behavioral health. So for example, behavioral health is a good use case to walk through to understand this. But when you think of behavioral health, medication alone is not enough to solve behavioral health challenges. And even most of the clinical trials that you would read will always show that the patient’s on a medication plus support and therapy. And then how do you replicate that? That’s the difference between efficacy and effectiveness.

Christina Weir: 20:52 Efficacy is a study measure, effectiveness is a population measure. And so we were looking at things to say okay, how would we translate efficacy to effectiveness real world? Out in the real world, what can we do?

Christina Weir: 21:04 So with behavioral health specifically, we had a couple of behavioral health medications that were in phase two clinical trials, that were showing pretty promising results. And we had some early primary and secondary indications that we were pursuing on them. So we started to crosswalk back from those primary and secondary indications. Then working with our consulting firm, understanding what type of digital applications or devices would be supportive to helping a patient achieve this primary measure of effectiveness, this secondary measure of effectiveness.

Christina Weir: 21:36 So for example, I’m going to make this up. But if one of the secondary measures of effectiveness were patient reporting their daily mood, could we create an app were the patient could be reporting in their daily mood everyday and that goes to a healthcare provider, and that just becomes another tool in the arsenal for the behavioral health specialist to understand in real time how that patient’s feeling in that day.

Sean Ammirati: 21:58 You’d be testing that app before the drug was ready to pair with the app?

Christina Weir: 22:04 Non-branded.

Sean Ammirati: 22:05 Unbranded?

Christina Weir: 22:06 Unbranded. Yes. And the whole idea with that was if you could create something of value from a digital asset perspective and then pair that with the molecule, what would that look like? Because like I said, the other ones were all looking at mature products that are in the market and now trying to retrofit digital things around that. This was getting back to that very first hypothesis we were floating to the board, which is our value, the different types of digital tools, devices, and resources that we can create around a space versus the drug itself. That was getting at that. Because if you could prove that you could create a viable digital device or technology to help the management, and then you add in the medication, and the two of them together could be a very powerful behavioral health treatment.

Sean Ammirati: 22:55 Yup.

Christina Weir: 22:56 That was the whole premise.

Sean Ammirati: 22:57 Makes a lot of sense.

Christina Weir: 22:59 Not without its trials and tribulations.

Sean Ammirati: 23:01 It’s interesting because when you hear people talking about these digital initiatives, almost all the examples you hear in that first category of products out there. How do we make this physical thing a digital thing too? Going the other way is really interesting.

Sean Ammirati: 23:18 One more question on this. So you said you went to the board for this. You asked for money, you didn’t get everything they asked for, but they actually gave you a number of greater than zero as well. It doesn’t matter what the number is. I’m more interested in how do you talk about innovation budgets at the board level for a company of that, 150 year old company?

Christina Weir: 23:39 And I think you and I have talked about this before. I think there’s one of two ways that you can go about that. I’ve seen it done two ways. I’ve seen it done the way, at the time I was reporting into the executive director who actually did the board pitch. I was there in a supporting role. So I’m not totally accountable for not getting all that money. I’ve seen it now done differently at Highmark.

Christina Weir: 24:04 So I would say that when you go and make the board pitch, we had a really good strategy that we had formulated going down this deep dive, having an outside opinion. Coming up with here’s our focus areas. I think the challenge in getting all you’re asking for from a financial perspective from the board is they look at it and it looks right on paper, but you’ve proven nothing. This is all very speculative, especially when you get into the high risk category, which is drug in phase two clinical trial that may not make it to the market. And you want to go and invest in digital assets around this particular space. What’s that trade-off look like? It’s a little less risky when you’re talking about in category, in line products that you’re building things for. Right? So that’s a little more comfortable conversation.

Christina Weir: 24:52 I would say the challenge we hit in that conversation was more the fact that the board was like okay, we get it. We know that there’s this burning platform for change. We know the consumerism, digital device adoption. The fact that consumers are dumping millions, and millions, and millions of terabytes of data into some universe and nobody’s capturing it for any meaningful management of population health. That all made sense to them, but there was nothing to show that it could work.

Christina Weir: 25:18 I think when I came in to Highmark, I saw it done a little differently where the senior vice president that I was reporting to at the time felt very strongly that we needed to go do some things first, and then show up with that as small proofs of concept of what it could be done if you made the appropriate investment.

Christina Weir: 25:33 So I would say that to be very honest with you, I think you need a blend of both. I do think you need that strategy work where you’re being very focused and targeted about where you want to go deep. I’m a big proponent of picking a couple of areas and going deep, developing a perspective and going deep, and being very strategic about how you make those investments and how you partner to get to where you want to go. I also do believe though for a board, my personal opinion, having seen it now done two ways. When you show up with some proof of concepts and some compelling work that’s already been accomplished with very limited resources, you present a pretty strong argument of why you deserve further investment. So I think the blend of both is really the right answer.

Sean Ammirati: 26:14 No, that’s really interesting. What we see a lot of people do is try to get a pool of money for a bunch of these. But I think the thesis-driven part of this is critical as well. Right? And I think not a huge fan of consulting firms, but I do think that’s a place that consulting firms can be helpful for you.

Sean Ammirati: 26:32 Okay. Well, I could talk to you for a long time, but we’re coming up on the end of the time we’d allocated here. The last question I like to ask everybody. So there’s lots of different people who listen to this, but some people who listen to this are obviously students of mine. And so one of the questions that I like to ask all the guests is if you could go back to in your case, right when you’re in this gap year before going back to medical and talk to someone who might be at a similar point and is thinking about jumping in and staying in industry. What advice would you give them that’s served you well in your career over the last seasons post passing on med school?

Christina Weir: 27:10 So my perspective on this is going to be counter to most strategic career advancement box that students will read. I have long not been a fan of over scripting my career. Here’s why I say that. If you would’ve talked to me when I was 19 years old, I would have told you that, “Oh yeah, five years from now I’ll be in medical school. This is where I’ll be.” And then fast forward all these years later and I’m not there. But I’m enormously happy, tremendously happy. I’ve had a very fulfilling and satisfying career. I’ve learned and met the most amazing people. Have still gotten to satisfy my innate desire to be attached to clinical and medical because I’ve worked with physicians my whole life. Report to the chief clinical transformation officer here now.

Christina Weir: 27:52 What the advice I would give is it’s great to have a plan. But don’t become so wrapped up in the plan that sometimes you miss those roses along the road. Because sometimes, the thing that you never thought you would be doing brings you the most reward and the most satisfying career development that you never thought possible.

Christina Weir: 28:09 I mentor a lot of people, it’s a passion of mine. And one of the things I always have them do is I have them put together that grid of what I like to do and what I’m good at, what I don’t like to do, but I’m good at. What I’m not good at and don’t like to do, etc. You get the point. And very commonly, the first and they’ll come back with is everything about their job. And then I tell them, “Take this back and think about this in your life in general.” And then once you figure out that thing that you’re good at and what you like to do or wherever it falls in that quadrant, tell me the emotion that it makes you feel when you do that.

Christina Weir: 28:38 Because I do believe that to have a happy and sustainable and longterm career, especially now we have people that aren’t retiring until their seventies. I hope that’s not me, but it could be. You have to love what you do. So if what you’re doing doesn’t bring out those emotions, you’re in the wrong place. And that’s the best career advice I give to everybody. Figure out what stimulates you, what you love, what your bliss is, what your passion is. But don’t over-script it. Because if you over-script it, you might miss the most amazing bend in the road that takes you down a journey that you never envisioned, but ends up being your panacea.

Sean Ammirati: 29:12 Yeah. That’s awesome, and a great note to end on. Christina, thanks again for the time today.

Christina Weir: 29:15 You’re welcome. Thank you for having me.

Sean Ammirati: 29:25 I hope you enjoyed this episode of Agile Giants. If so, consider sharing it with a friend. And if you think it’s worth five stars, which I hope you do, please go to iTunes and rate it so that others can find this content as well.

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